This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Religious persecution template. |
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Religion Template‑class | |||||||
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This template was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
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I don't think this "persecuting group" should include atheists. The article this links to does not have ANY mention of atheism (or agnosticism). It sounds more like catholic anti-clericals. The article lists the anti-clericals as "fighting for Christ", not a group of people lacking a religion.
Isn't this template inherently carrying bias. To place on a page, "this group has been persecuted by/persectued" seems awfully POV no matter how true (or not) it may be... (just my 2 cents) Makenji-san 07:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)Reply
Two way grid?
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We need a two-way grid really, "Persecution of atheists by Mormons", "Persecution of Zoroastrians by Christians", etc. Admittedly, some would be a bit short. Poetlister 16:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
Trouble is, the longest article would probably be "Persecution of Christians by Christians". We'd then need to split it into "Persecution of Protestants by Catholics" and vice versa, etc. RachelBrown 10:02, 23 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
I do not see this as a notable group, and this page is already sinking under the weight of its unused links. (In case you have not noticed, it is being VfD-ed itself.)
If you want to add Scientologists, then kindly first create the relevant articles. --EMS | Talk 02:52, 23 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
Those articles would be rather long, and I don't see any problem with them being red links in the template. Scientologists have been persecuted and persecuted others in thier history. SCN is very relavent to any article on Religious persecution. Klonimus 07:38, 23 July 2005 (UTC)Reply
where are the zoroastrians? Sohrab Irani 02:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)Reply
Pagans and Germanic pagans
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I don't see why there should be a separate entry for Germanic pagans, when there is already one for Pagans in general. DFH 17:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
As some of these links are to subsections in the main article about that religion, rather than wait indefinitely for someone to write "persecution of the Cathars", and "persecution of the Zoraoastrians" articles, I've linked to the relevant subsections in the main articles. I'm wondering if we should do the same for the two hidden links, Sikhism and Spiritualism. Sikhs#Sikhism in the Western World has a section on recent persecution, which I guess I'll just add if no one objects. However there is no section on persecution in the Spiritualism article. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 06:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
"Christians, Jews, Muslims" then "Soviet Union"...WTF???
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Okay, if you're going to generalize people by religion, then do it equally, do it fairly. The first three are RELIGIONS. The last one is a COUNTRY. You should do one of two things:
1) Replace "Christians", "Jews", and "Muslims" under the "by persecuting group" column with the specific NATIONS that did the persecuting, or
2) Replace "Soviet Union" under said column with "Atheists".
It is not fair to say that when the Soviet Union persecuted people, it was the Soviet Union not Atheists that did the persecuting, but when anyone else persecuted people, it was (religion) and not the respective nation or country. You are either being unfair towards religion, or letting atheists off the hook. Take your pick, and fix it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.144.227.63 (talk) 01:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC).Reply
Removing the persecuting group altogether as POV ?
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We don't seem to be able to describe the persecuted in a NPOV was so as per some of the suggestions in [1] we should remove the persecuting group. They do seem very contrived given they do not point to articles but sections inside articles. This does seem like a pic-n-mix approach. Ttiotsw 19:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Buddhists listed as a Persecuting group yet....?
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By Persecuting group lists Buddhists and yet the Wikilink to that article is unclear why Buddhists are listed. The only reference to the word "Persecut*" is with "Buddhists were briefly persecuted under the Zoroastrian priest-king Kirder.". Huh ? They were persecuted not the "...persecuting group:" surely shome mistake ? I vote they are removed along with all the other atheists ! Ttiotsw 19:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Still seems like a good delete so I was bold and did it. Ttiotsw 04:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Dispute Resolution next step.
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Disputes on Templates are new to me so I'll create what I feel is an unbiased and neutral edit and then self-revert it instantly (this doesn't count against WP:3RR ) because at this time I don't want to tag the template NPOV as that may mess with many articles. Once the IP identifies itself then we can proceed with resolution on handling the reverts (e.g. WP:3O or WP:RFC. Ttiotsw 11:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
This template is biased and should probably be deleted entirely. There is no such thing as factual "persecution". Would like to see all references to "persecution", "victim" etc. which are stated as facts removed from wikipedia. Fourdee 19:57, 2 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
I don't want the template to be removed just the original research removed. I have edited the template and removed words unless they are in the article title or in the leader paragraphs. Anyone using any other wording that they pick from their own personal view or from deep in the article is either doing a bit of original research to push their point of view by presenting a minor view.
These are the "notable events" in the infobox...
You gotta be kidding me... Where's the Inquisition? Persecution of Christians by Jews and Romans? Persecution of the Huguenots? Persecution of Catholics and others in England? And on and on...
I cannot believe that these three are the three most notable events in the history of religious persecution. I'm going to be bold and remove them from the infobox. If anyone disagrees, revert me but also explain why you think these events deserve to be highlighted.
--Richard 05:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
See your comment now. Can we add those? Seems like they'd all be useful, unless it became a big gang-up on somebody, or some other problem.Mackan79 22:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
The list of events would I guess be special events that didn't exactly fit into a category, or maybe the very largest types of upheavals. The Inquisition would seem like it would have to fit; as to persecution of Christians by Jews or by Romans, that's in the main article, I believe, no? Mackan79 22:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
The strange change of categorization within the template from organization by presecuting group to "notable events" was a plain act of POV pushing to remove atheists as a persecuting group. Significantly, that change still listed religions as persecutors. That change to the template is blatant POV and is unacceptable. There was nothing wrong with the organization of the template as it was. It made more sense, it was neutral and it was consistent. Mamalujo 17:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
I think it's problematic to focus the template on who has committed persecution, particularly when the articles don't match up such that you have five on one group and one on others. If there's material on persecution by atheists, that could certainly be made into an article. In any case, I'd think a more helpful template would focus on things that don't look like accusations, which would probably mean moving the "by group" material somewhere lower. Mackan79 18:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply Mackan79 characterized the list of "Notable events" as a "list of events would I guess be special events that didn't exactly fit into a category". If that is the intent, then I would suggest renaming the section to "Other notable events" and moving it to the bottom of the template. Placed at the top and without the qualifier "other", the section seemed to be saying "These are the most notable events in the history of religious persecution". I was objecting to that implication. By placing it at the bottom and saying "Other notable events", we change the meaning to the one that Mackan79 described.
--Richard 17:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
That would be fine with me. Mackan79 18:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
Simply rearranging the order of a POV laden edit (whether the POV was intentional or not) does not cure the problem. The previous organization of the template made the most sense. Removing areligious groups as persecutors while retaining religions as persecutors is POV and greatly misleading. The greatest persecution of religion in the 20th century was not by other religions but by those opposed to religion. Mamalujo 19:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
Mamalujuo, I don't believe I removed them; the problem is that those aren't actually articles on persecution by atheists, but a group of articles on events which have been named that for purposes of the template. Surely you see the problem with this. I'm suggesting if we move all of that to the bottom, then it's less of an issue, while the events involving atheists are still included under their actual names. Also religious persecution here is being defined by those against whom it's being done (the article is on persecution of religions, not by them), which suggests to me that the victims should go on the top. Mackan79 19:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
Actually, they ARE articles about persecution by atheists and anti-clericals, whether or not they bear that moniker. I do see what you're saying is the problem, but I don't think it is a real issue. Moreover, the countervailing problem is greater. By far, the greatest persecution of religion in the 20th century was not by other religions but was by those opposed to religion, namely atheists and anticlerical in latin countries and atheist states in the communist world. The revised template is thus less factually acurate and it moved away from the simple and workable organization which it had.Mamalujo 19:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
I support Mackan79 on how they have re-arrange this. It is more logical view. Whereas Mamalujo is clearly inventing new titles for articles by plucking words he wants out of articles (in some cases inventing new words not even present in the linked articles). The articles ARE also about *men* being the oppressers (from a feminist POV) or *meat-eaters* (from a Vegetarian POV) or heterosexuals (from a homosexual POV)...there are many other possible attributes plucked to push a point. You are plucking out "atheists" to reword article titles and present a particular spin to the template and this is against the broader consensus of editors. If you want articles with "atheist" this or that in the title then start them and then they may fit here.Ttiotsw 19:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
Re Richard's comment, above, as to the absence of the Inquisition, it is referenced in the article on persecution by Christians. But it should be noted that despite the Black Legend, the Spanish Inquisition was in relative terms vastly less bloody than, for example, the Reign of Terror. Modern scholarship concludes that the Spanish Inquisition killed 3000-6000 people over a number of centuries, whereas 40,000 people were killed in less than a year in the Reign of Terror. The Red Terror in Spain in a matter of months killed more clerics alone (not including lay people) than all the people killed in the centuries of the Spanish Inquisition.Mamalujo 19:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
This template's NPOV has been seriously compromised. It now distances secularism from the intense and well-documented persecutions against religious people that took place during the 20th century. People have both killed and died for secularism on a massive scale. We should try to put the secularist apologetics and revisionism on a back burner so that this template can conform to NPOV guidelines. Some secularists, especially hardline atheists, hate religion and want to destroy it, and have attempted to do so in the past. There should be an article called persecution by secularists that could cover things such as:
There are a half dozen others that could be included in that article. Secularism and anti-religious sentiment were the primary motivating factors in all of these persecutions. Today's secularists often rely on the no true Scotsman fallacy or try to highlight variations in ideology ("Oh no, they were communists."), but they only do this so they can continue to use guilt by association against religion for the past crimes of religious people without being outed as hypocrites (see criticism of religion to see how that works). An article about persecution by secularists would fit well with this template. Persecution by atheists might need to be spun off into another article, though, because it could get very long. 154.20.253.36 21:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
As far as I can tell, I never made the fallacy of guilt by association. That is something you read into my words. I understand how and why you thought so, but I never meant that it is secularism in general that is responsible for these persecutions. That is the argument form that you use against religion, and I would never want to borrow your fallacy. I must have hit a nerve to make you read my words in that way. Maybe because it is the atheists' favourite fallacy when talking about religious people to blame their beliefs for things like the Crusades, etc. and you were just surprised to learn that your ideological camp has a few skeletons in its own closet? A few million skeletons, in fact. Maybe you should realize that such closets don’t exist.
I merely meant to say that they were secularists who persecuted religious people. Secularism is fine, as long as it isn't the intolerant, bigoted, militant varieties responsible for the atrocities under discussion, and even then it is the intolerance, bigotry, and militancy of those types that is responsible, and not secularism per se (wow, I wonder if secularism and religion could be on equal footing there?).
Besides that, what a lovely little antireligious rant you ahve there. It is the best one I have seen since…well…since the last one I made. Please face the facts, though. Some secularists of a militant stripe have killed millions of religious people and otherwise persecuted millions more in the name of combating religion and establishing the dominance of secularism. I hope that those same quotations of yours are not used again someday to justify more such antireligious activity. For example, your Richard Dawkins advocates removing children from the influence of religious parents. I for one cannot see any potential for human rights violations in that, but then again I am a rather trusting person.
I wish you luck in curing us masses of our delusions. Just try not to make the cure worse than the disease next time, if you can. We religious folk are somewhat tired of being slaughtered by one group of secularists and then scolded by another (totally unrelated) group of secularists about how violent our beliefs are in comparison to the bastion of peace, tolerance, and harmony that is secularism (that we must embrace or be mocked, marginalized, and destroyed--in that order). You can see how that gets old very quickly. 154.20.253.36 05:30, 8 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
In the past week as a guess only 1 of your edits has stuck - and truthfully it is a dubious deletion because you cut+paste some waffle about Christians, reworded it to say "atheists" and stuck it in another target article and then used the reverting editor's summary on the target article to revert the original text on the original article !.
I'm just concerned that this template is being stuffed with article wikilinks which present an undue weight to a particular view. Ttiotsw 12:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
Some of my edits made on this date will without doubt be controversial. With that in mind, I ask the following. I made three edits, one of which only contained formatting changes. When reverting, please adhere to the new formatting as it is used throughout Wikipedia, from {{war}} to {{love}}. --User:Krator (t c) 01:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)Reply
Don't include links to every subgroup. We have a link to "Neopagans". Adding links to "Asatru" and "Wicca" on top of that is like linking to "Anabaptists", "Jehova's Witnesses", "Catholics", "Protestants", "Apostolics" and what have you on top of "Christians". Try to counteract Wikipedia's natural tendency to fragment into hundreds of badly maintained stubby sub-articles. dab (𒁳) 14:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)Reply
Why not merge Christians, Mormons, Jews and Muslims (since they are all Abrahamic religions) then? // Liftarn
I had added State religion as it clearly is a means of religious discrimination (and historically a form of persecution) as much as say "State atheism" has ever been but it has been reverted. In the UK the Acts of Settlement (and other laws) are clearly intended to discriminate against Catholics or to provide the one State religion with an advantage of all others (for example the Blasphemy laws in the UK only apply/applied to the Church of England). In the many countries that have State religions today though the persecution is not as cruel as in the past, the discrimination still remains. The template is clearly titled "Religious discrimination and persecution" and whilst State religion discriminates and we have reliable sources that can show examples of State religions that are discriminatory then it should be listed in this template. Ttiotsw 10:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)Reply
I would also point out that in many countries that have state religions like afghanistan, iran and egypt, persecution is as cruel as in the past. In fact I think citing the UK as your example is a mistake, since muslim countries that execute apostates from the state religion are much less ambiguous examples. These countries don't care about jewish converts to christianity for instance, only converts from islam, and indeed it sometimes occurs that conversions are forced, by a muslim simply claiming someone converted, then forcing them to affirm the conversion or be killed as an apostate. Oh and as a final rhetorical question to those objecting to the inclusion, if state religion wasn't a means of religious persecution, why then do the US and Australian constitutions specifically forbid the establishment of state religions? ornis (t) 10:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)Reply
Also: should "by method/strategy" be "by form"? This might make more sense. Mackan79 15:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)Reply
Please add the template itself to the article. User:Krator (t c) 11:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)Reply
State Atheism
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I am adding state atheism back into the template. Quite frankly, it indisputably belongs and never should have been removed. An argument that it does not belong can only be cobbled together by very strained sophisty. And no, the fact that it belongs in the template does not mean that state religion also belongs. The latter commonly exists without persecution; the former does not. Mamalujo 06:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)Reply
Looking through various articles, it appears to me that this template is being overused. In particular, it's now been added largely by one editor to most of the events listed on the bottom portion of the template, which doesn't seem helpful to me. One can go through the articles and look, but putting large templates on articles like Dechristianisation of France during the French Revolution, Red Terror - Spain, Cristero War, etc. characterizing these as articles about "Religious discrimination and persecution" seems rather soap boxy; surely the articles are about a number of things including these issues, but primarily about the events themselves. My suggestion would be to generally put the template on articles about discrimination, but not about specific events. Other thoughts? Mackan79 18:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)Reply
WP Discrimination
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Greetings. Over at WikiProject Discrimination we are looking to split our currently-overgrown Template:Discrimination sidebar into finer scopes such as racial discrimination, ethnic discrimination, etc., including religious discrimination. Not wanting to accidentally create a fork here, how do the contributors here feel that Template:Religious persecution would fit in this plan, and/or related to WP Discrimination? - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 23:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)Reply
Anti-clericalism
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Can Anti-clericalism be classified as "persecution"? It appears that the anti-clericalists simply want to strip power and prestige from the clergy, not arrest or rob or even kill them.Bless sins (talk) 14:39, 27 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Please consider the removal of this Template from the article on War in the Vendée. I agree that there were episodes of religious prosecution in the conflict, but the template of religious prosecution in the article is excessive, bungles up the article, and serves no real purpose. Templates should be used where the issue or topic represented by it is directly related to the article, and closely connected with it. Following the logic of putting this template up over every single article having to do with events, conflict and war with religion as backdrop would make this template appear in practically all articles on historical conflicts. I don't see it -and quite correctly- in the Albigensian Crusade article, or in any of the Crusade articles, for instance... I don't really see what it's doing in the War in the Vendée. Cheers! Dr Benway (talk) 12:48, 13 January 2009 (UTC)Reply
Hi there. Could we please have a normal conversation on the use of this infobox in the article War in the Vendée? I thought we had agreed on the fact that it was a bit of an overuse there... As stated above. No answer, no discussion, simply revert and ongoing revert war with Mamalujo. It's plain silly, frankly. Dr Benway (talk) 20:29, 26 July 2009 (UTC)Reply
Yorkshirian recently made and edit reducting the template to a bar and then, on each of the articles, moving the bar to then end of the article. I am opposed to each of these edits, done without discussion, becuase they minimize the related articles which give perspective to various incidents of religious persecution. Mamalujo (talk) 21:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
In the articles which you are putting it in, its squashing all of the pictures and all of the "edit" functions into a royal mess, making the articles unreadable. The template in a bar contains the exact same information, in the exact same articles, only it doesn't screw up the articles but pushing all the images down to the bottom and messing up the format. I've reverted. - Yorkshirian (talk) 22:13, 14 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps this has been discussed already, but it seems to me that the events subsection of the template makes no sense, because there is simply no way to include every instance of religious persecution in there. Either it should be deleted (and if there are no responses to this in a few days, I'll do so) or we need to develop a set of inclusion criteria that are both meaningful and would limit the links to a reasonable number. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:56, 7 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
Roman persecution of Christians
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While this template is too long already and the extent of the Roman persecutions are subject to scholarly discussion, I think it was common enough and well know enough to gain a spot. The dates are from the page itself, starting with the first persecution and ending with Constantine's conversion. Suomi13 (talk) 00:37, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Deleting
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I'm dumping the following which (skimming their pages) had nothing to do with religion:
-Rwandan genocide
-Hutu Ten Commandments
-Anfal
-Rwandan Revolution Suomi13 (talk) 20:06, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply