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Hopefully we can put an end to this farce. Long ago there was discussion on this talkpage to the effect that a "logo", or emblem, would be obviously more appropriate in this role, than an SVG representation of a flag. Flags are fundamentally physical pieces of fabric: what we use on Wiki are representations of flags, not actual "flags". Emblems and logos, however, are specifically intended for use on two-dimensional media like this (e.g. [1]). -- Director (talk) 17:43, 21 June 2015 (UTC)Reply The simple emblem is obviously more appropriate. --18:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC)Tuvixer (talk)
I propose scaling the size of the swastika in the infobox down slightly from 120px to 100px. I believe that for a lone symbol, the image is slightly too big and draws attention away from the articles that it appears in. By scaling it down slightly (yes, it may not seem like much but it makes a huge difference), aesthetics are greatly improved. I have placed the template to the side of this discussion for visual aid: the top infobox has the swastika scaled to 100px, and the bottom is scaled to the current 120px. What are your thoughts? Nick Mitchell 98 (talk) 09:11, 14 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
Support - But why are we RfCing this? It seems like you could be bold here. Did someone oppose this change? NickCT (talk) 02:31, 17 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
Thirdly - I'm the guy who originally introduced the Parteiadler back when. Let me make a few points in that regard:
I was wrong about this. -- Director (talk) 10:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)Reply
Well, the Swastika was around for thousands of years before the Nazi version was adopted. With that said, it was the official emblem of the NSDAP when rotated as if in perpetual motion. And as you know, the eagle holding the wreath with the swastika represented the party and Nazi Germany depending which shoulder (or way) the eagle was looking. In the end, what is important is consensus and I hope more of the editors who voiced an opinion in the recent RfC will state their's herein. Kierzek (talk) 17:53, 11 October 2015 (UTC)Reply
It is my understanding that the RfC of August/September 2015, supersedes the RfC of April/May 2014. In this case, it is DasReichenz and Dannis243 that are ignoring the relevant consensus and are the ones that are "blatantly ignoring the first consensus", not Director who is attempting to fulfill his duty as an admin and keep to consensus by reverting their edit wars. So until a new RfC is completed with consensus for changing back to the Parteiadler, can we please keep the status quo established by the most recent consensus with the Nazi swastika in the infobox?
Additionally, the Parteiadler that DasReichenz and Dannis243 are attempting to reinstate is a symbol used exclusively by the National Socialist German Workers' Party. However, while Nazism originated in Germany, it is not an exclusively German ideology as it was adopted by many other former political parties around the world during the interwar and WWII periods. Even the flags of the NSDAP and Nazi Germany do not have either their respective eagles on them, they are designed with a simple Nazi swastika as the only distinguishing feature. If we were to use the logic of these two users, then the template for the Fascism sidebar should use the symbol of the Italian Fascist Party instead of the simple Fasces that are currently on the template. And the argument that the swastika has been around for centuries and it cannot be used in the template is invalid as this particular design is a specifically Nazi swastika (thick black, rotated 45 degrees, "clockwise-facing", etc.). Yes, the swastika in general has been used for centuries before the Nazi period, but designs have varied over the centuries.
One final point, how is it DasReichenz that you only now have an issue with the use of the plain Nazi swastika when it has been in use on this template since 27 April 2015? Even when I originally began scaling down the size of the image, you reverted it to its larger size and had no interest in the Parteiadler until now, after you lost the RfC in my favour of scaling down the image size. I'm just curious as to your thought pattern and why this issue only matters now to "someone who actually cares about representing history as it should be" instead of before my RfC was even created.
Nick Mitchell 98 (talk) 06:26, 15 October 2015 (UTC)Reply
Update: Apologies, I mistakenly thought that Director was an admin when is in fact not. Correcting error in my post. Nick Mitchell 98 (talk) 05:42, 16 October 2015 (UTC)Reply
Nick you raise some valid points. I agree that at this point since it has turned into a "slow-motion" edit war, that the last RfC consensus should take presentence and priority. BTW, neither Director, nor I are admins. But one does not have to be to perform many tasks and functions on Wikipedia. The current Hakenkreuz should remain until consensus has changed, if it in fact does. Kierzek (talk) 12:40, 15 October 2015 (UTC)Reply
It seems the matter is settled...for now; the last RfC should stand and consensus be followed accordingly. Kierzek (talk) 12:39, 2 November 2015 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Punk and heavy metal
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The side-bar, under related topics, contains two curious entries:
I would like to remove them since they don't seem to belong in the infobox. Are there any objections? K.e.coffman (talk) 20:35, 19 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
IMO, anything not directly related to the German Nazi movement should be removed, but I wonder how others feel. Associating people, groups or movements with the contentious category (which is what the sidebar does) is questionable, again in my opinion. Collect (talk) 13:12, 20 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
I saw a previous conversation in the archives about the inclusion of Lincoln Rockwell. No consensus was gained there, so I am reopening the conversation. He was a leader of a small fringe political entity in the United States that had virtually no authority or influence. He should not be included in the sidebar. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 17:34, 14 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
Semi-protected edit request on 10 February 2017
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I want the Swastica removed. Everybody knows the Nazi symbols and this inclusion is superfluous. It appears to be there for fans. 87.113.6.55 (talk) 02:41, 10 February 2017 (UTC)Reply
I rather agree with this. I have made it considerably smaller than it once was, since the large size seemed gratuitous to me, and related to the fact that many Nazi-related people articles have very large images of their subjects in their ledes, much larges than the generally accepted 225-250px in the majority of other articles. These large images appear to be an effort to be iconic. In any case, I don't think te sidebar would suffer without the swatiska. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:05, 10 February 2017 (UTC)Reply
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template. Thank you very much for your suggestion! Since there is disagreement here, then a consensus has not yet been reached. In my humble opinion, I would agree with FreeKnowledgeCreator that the most-recognized symbol of Nazism, the swastika, should stay in both the sidebar and the navbar. There are other discussions and RfCs on this talk page that also should be considered. Paine Ellsworth - put'r there – 05:50, 13 February 2017 (UTC)Reply
A new RfC should be opened to resize, change, or remove the image. The current version is based on community consensus from the the RfC and discussion above (i.e. RfC: Swastika size in infobox and Do we need a new RfC on the Hakenkreuz or Parteiadler?). — Godsy (TALKCONT) 03:04, 8 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
I've WP:BOLDly reduced the image size to 60px. There is absolutely no visual reason for it to be any larger than that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
I've reverted the bold change. By the statement "this *is* reduced" in your edit summary, which seems to be a reference to the closing statement of the RfC, one could equally justify changing the image size to 1px. It's unfortunate that the wording of the closure was so vague; the RfC was clearly to change the size of the image from 120px to 100px. 60px is too small. The 87px was just about right; However, as I said before, I think an RfC is the best road to seek a change. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 08:46, 8 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Part of a series on |
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Organizations |
History |
Ideology |
Nazism outside of Germany |
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Part of a series on |
Nazism |
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Organizations |
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Nazism outside of Germany |
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Proposals:
Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:47, 8 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
Survey
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June 31, 2015 December 25, 2016, when I reduced it to that. When another editor put the swastika side-by-side with "Nazism", that was visually unbalanced and not very attractive stylistically, so I reverted the change, but I was struck by the fact that the swastika at 60px, which that editor had reduced it to, looked very good: not too big, and not so small as to be silly. So I played around for a while with numerous sizes, and I determined -- at least to my own satisfaction -- that 60px was a very good size for it to be. Anything much smaller looked wrong, and larger than 87px looked promotional to me - and now that I've seen it at 60, even 87 looks large. Thus I suggest that we leave the swastika at 60px. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:00, 8 March 2017 (UTC)ReplyPart of a series on Nazism
Part of a series on Nazism
Part of a series on Nazism
or none of the above - I could be mistaken, but it technically shouldn't be a fixed size at all. Sizes will always look different on different monitors/browsers/user-settings, which is a good thing, but fixed-pixel sizes override that. MOS:IMGSIZE and WP:IMAGESIZE explain. This advice is very widely ignored, but the MOS gives a compelling case against a fixed size. Having an RFC for a specific pixel width is creating a future hassle for anyone who wants to 'fix' it by switching to a scaling factor. We could figure out a percentage instead, but seeing the comparison, I think it's more distracting than necessary. I don't strongly object to a small image for navigation (similar to A), but figuring all that out seems pointless if we're just going to remove it anyway. Grayfell (talk) 00:12, 10 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
|upright=
(verifiable using Preview). Except for registered users who have changed their user size preference: 60px = |upright=0.27
, 87px = |upright=0.4
, 100px = |upright=0.45
. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:00, 10 March 2017 (UTC)Reply|upright=factor
work, you have to add |frameless
, otherwise it ignores |upright=factor
and displays the image at its native size, 471px. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:23, 11 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
A - It doesn't need to be any larger than necessary for the half-blind to discern its shape fairly clearly. But I support scaling as |upright=0.27 per WP:IMGSIZE. (Or you could round down to an even |upright=0.25
, either way—the difference is an insignificant 4.4 pixels for the vast majority of users.) ―Mandruss ☎ 02:17, 10 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
A - Although a 60px full flag would be better. Bertdrunk (talk) 10:53, 10 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
I agree: a flag (which is shown directly below the infobox on the page itself).Maineartists (talk) 12:45, 10 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
D (remove). What the reason for a double distraction (Hakenkreuz + upright)? Carlotm (talk) 23:53, 11 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
Two or more images with similar elements in the same template is not uncommon: The communism sidebar contains the hammer and sickle and a red star with a hammer and sickle (the example above) and the liberalism sidebar contains two of the same yellow flag. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 13:46, 13 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
Threaded discussion
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You can also see what they look like in a sidebar at Template talk:Nazism sidebar/Sidebar choices.
I will be contacting all editors who previously participated.
Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:34, 14 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
@Beyond My Ken: Nice job on the restart. Please re-read my comment at 22:33, 13 March 2017 (UTC) in the just-closed RfC. Do you disagree that the Party flag is a better choice than the Reich flag? IMO the latter needn't be on the table (and who needs 3 more options anyway?). ―Mandruss ☎ 05:57, 14 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
Is that simply an artifact of our image, or was that actually the case?I know nothing, but the caption at Nazism#Etymology reads: "Flag of the Nazi Party, similar but not identical to the national flag of Nazi Germany (1933–45)." As I can see no difference besides the centering, I assumed that the centering was the difference referred to in the caption, implying that it is not accidental.
BTW, intellectually, the party flag makes more sense considering the subject of the sidebar.I agree, that's why I suggested using it instead of the Reich flag. Do you think a significant number of editors will care about that minor distinction, so we shouldn't make the change now? But I'm easy. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:19, 14 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
The proposed symbols seem to be inappropriate, the last three in particular. This hybrid infobox, a mixture of ideological and historiographical exposition, should not overlap into Nazi party matter and symbols, for the latter has its own infobox with party flag and all. Consider also its context, when Nazism infobox follows right away its Nazi party sibling, with the resulting plethora of symbols so much loved, I presume, only by a nostalgic, a-critical minority for whose predisposition we should not care much (WP:FRINGE). Moreover the infobox depicts among the main people related to Nazism Houston Stewart Chamberlain, who was already dead in 1927. The infobox lists also other extreme right parties, which had their own symbols. All in all, my advice is to abandon the current absent-minded discussion and to choose to avoid any symbol for there isn't one representing the infobox content wholly and properly. Carlotm (talk) 03:15, 16 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
Editor Robinson98354 removed Houston Stewart Chamberlain from the list of "People" in the template, on the grounds that he wasn't a Nazi. I think an argument could be made that the list of "People" is not necessarily a list of Nazis, but a list of people associated with or important to the Nazi movement. Still, I do take Robinson98354's point, so I did not restore Chamberlain to the "People" list.
Chamberlain was, however, a strong influence on the Nazi ideology, so I added him to the "Ideology" list, an edit which Robinson98354 reverted with the same comment, that Chamberlain was not a Nazi. In this case, though, I think he is dead wrong. Since Chamberlain was a significant influence on the Nazi ideology, his inclusion on the "Ideology" list is completely justified, and should not be removed.
Here's what a number of sources have to say about Chamberlain's influence on the Nazis and the connection between them:
Kershaw Hubris:
Shire The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
Reuth Goebbels
I could check more sources, but this should be more than sufficient to show that Chamberlain belongs in the "Ideology list, and perhaps should even be restored to the "People" list, as he was, it turns out, a member of the party. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC)Reply
The recent change to the image was stupid. I reverted it because its stupid :). It objectively looks bad, and it objectively makes no sense.
Arguments against the previous image are stupid. That's not any old swastika - that's a NAZI swastika. Black, facing left, rotated 90 degrees (spinning). In the English-speaking world it is THE widely-recognized symbol of Nazism, on its own without any accouterments. That's all that matters with regard to its propriety.
Please folks... leave this messed-up issue alone. Don't virtue-signal by making the image stupidly small, or demonstrate pan-cultural ubersensitivity by talking how the swastika has different meanings... The Nazis used it (and not just in their flag!) - its representative of their ideology as well as other things. -- Director (talk) 13:48, 9 May 2017 (UTC)Reply
I call them Option 26a and Option 37-9. I don't like the current tiny icon:
I started messing around with the image here in ages past, and I'm really sorry for that. I think we should just stop and leave it be. I don't understand what arguments prompted folks to just slap the German flag onto there, but I can't express how weird I find the current state of affairs. Thanks for your time, and again, apologies for opening this up... but this little tiny flag thing just looks terrible to me, as well as objectively inappropriate. -- Director (talk) 13:15, 10 May 2017 (UTC)Reply
Survey, May 2017
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At the topic of the talk can we have a TLDR account of why there is a microscopic image as the icon, for those of us who cannot be bothered to wade through pages and pages of back and forward? Claíomh Solais (talk) 22:36, 5 June 2017 (UTC)Reply
Because that was the WP:consensus result of the RfC about what the icon should be, and how big it should be. Wikipedia runs by consensus, so that was the decision. Someone recently tried to re-open the subject, and soon withdrew their suggestion because most editors felt it was too soon to re-examine the question. If you want to re-open it, that's your privilege, but the result is almost certain to be the same, that it's too soon to have another RfC. If you change the size of the image again on your own, you will be editing against consensus, which is more than likely to get you sanctioned by an admin. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:00, 5 June 2017 (UTC)Reply
The current controlling RfC is here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:06, 5 June 2017 (UTC)Reply
Classic "design by committee", possibly with a bit of virtue signalling into the mix.
If he were alive today, H-dog would point to this template as a prime argument for his Führerprinzip :D. -- Director (talk) 10:24, 16 June 2017 (UTC)Reply
I've removed The Foundations of the Nineteenth Century from the Racial Ideology section. There is no reason for the book to be included in the Nazism sidebar at all. The book was an influence to Nazi ideology but so were many others, there is nothing gained by adding this book to the sidebar.--Sein und Zeit (talk) 15:46, 29 August 2017 (UTC) Indef blocked for abusively using multiple accounts. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:22, 2 September 2017 (UTC)Reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@Sein und Zeit: If you look up the page, you will find the thread #Houston Stewart Chamberlain, which was provoked by the attempt of User:Robinson98354 to remove Houston Stewart Chamberlain from the list of "People" in the sidebar. Now, here you are, attemtping to remove Houston Stewart Chamberlain's best known work, The Foundations of the Nineteenth Centuryfrom the "Racial ideology" section, or to move it into an innocuous-sounding "Literature" section.
Sein und Zeit, is this just a coincidence? Are you in any way connected with Robinson98354?
I ask because another editor expressed the opinion in that earlier thread that Robinson98354 was a sock of a banned editor, and because Roninson98354 was later found to be a sock of User:English Patriot Man (who has had many socks) [7], and Robinson98354 stopped editing in May 2017, just a month before you began editing in June 2017. Further, when you look at your edits and compare them to Robinson98354 and English Patriot Man, the overlap is very significant, [8] as it is if you put in any of English Patriot Man's many socks, such as User:Hashi0707. [9]
So, Sein und Zeit, would you like to comment on this here, or would you prefer to comment on the SPI I will be filing right after I ask an admin who is familiar with English Patriot Man to look over your edits? Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:35, 31 August 2017 (UTC)Reply
Should the "Racial ideology" section of the sidebar contain in its list books which were influential in shaping the Nazi's racial ideology, such as Houston Stewart Chamberlain's The Foundations of the Nineteenth Century, Alfred Rosenberg's The Myth of the Twentieth Century, Arthur de Gobineau's An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races, Madison Grant's The Passing of the Great Race, and other books which consensus may find appropriate? Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:15, 31 August 2017 (UTC)Reply
Books RfC: Survey
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(Note: !Votes and short explications only, threaded discussion and extended statements will be relocated)
No - The inclusion of the books is not the problem, the problem is placing them in the same category as 'Racial ideology'. Although without any doubt the books influenced Nazi racial ideology, they should not be placed in the same section because they weren't explicitly Nazi racial books and weren't completely coherent with Nazi racial ideology. The Nazis were selective in the works they used to influence their ideology. (continued below) -- Sein und Zeit (talk) 03:46, 31 August 2017 (UTC) Indef block for abusively using multiple accounts. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:12, 2 September 2017 (UTC)Reply
yes its fine - the articles about each of these books make it clear that they are appropriate for the racial ideology section of the navbox. They could just as well be in a "books" subsection but this is fine too. Jytdog (talk) 03:58, 31 August 2017 (UTC)Reply
User:Beyond My Ken, I have said it quite clearly that I approve of those books being included in the sidebar, as well as Mein Kampf and The Myth of the Twentieth Century but in a separate section titled 'Literature'.--Sein und Zeit (talk) 02:29, 31 August 2017 (UTC) Indef blocked for abusively using multiple accounts. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:15, 2 September 2017 (UTC)ReplyIt's important to mark the distinction between something that influences an ideology and the ideology itself. Literature is literature, books are not ideologies themselves. Not all of the books themselves were exclusively even Nazi anyway e.g An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races is currently included in the 'Racial ideology' section yet the book condemns antisemitism and describes the Jews in positive terms, hardly something that is completely coherent with all of Nazi racial ideology. The Nazis were selective in the works that influenced their ideology overall hence why it's important to distinguish between the two.--Sein und Zeit (talk) 02:48, 31 August 2017 (UTC) Indef blocked for abusively using multiple accounts. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:15, 2 September 2017 (UTC)ReplyUser:Jytdog, how can they be appropriately fitted in the 'Racial ideology' section when one of the book openly condemns Jews and speaks about them in a positive light? I'd hardly say that was the same way the Nazis thought.--Sein und Zeit (talk) 04:03, 31 August 2017 (UTC) Indef blocked for abusively using multiple accounts. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:15, 2 September 2017 (UTC)Reply
I don't know, how could Nazis have existed at all? How could heidigger have been a nazi/nazi sympathizer? There is no accounting for irrationality or self-contradiction, or people taking one bite out of an apple and leaving the rest. Jytdog (talk) 04:05, 31 August 2017 (UTC)Reply(continued from above) 1) The Foundations of the Nineteenth Century did influence Nazi racial thought but some parts of it many Nazis would have disagreed with e.g Chamberlain included Slavs into the "Aryan race" and he says in the book "Though it were proved that there was never an Aryan race in the past, yet we desire that in the future there may be one. This is the decisive standpoint for men of action." I highly doubt Himmler would have agreed. 2) Gobineau's An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races condemns antisemitism and praises the Jews on several occasions, again, I highly doubt any prominent Nazis would have agreed. 3) Grant's The Passing of the Great Race was just one of many books that influenced Nazi racial theory of Nordic supremacy. And again, the Nazis weren't coherent with their Nordic supremacy thinking. This is why it's important to distinguish between which books influenced Nazi racial ideology with a separate section and the actual racial ideologies themselves e.g master race, Lebensraum, etc in the 'Racial ideology' section. Nazi racial ideology was not consistent and was largely contradictory so to somehow place books which openly condemn certain aspects of Nazi racial ideology makes no sense.--Sein und Zeit (talk) 03:46, 31 August 2017 (UTC) Indef blocked for abusively using multiple accounts. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:15, 2 September 2017 (UTC)Reply
User:Beyond My Ken, you quickly added An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races or The Passing of the Great Race when all I did was mention them on this talk page. You didn't reach a consensus. One rule for you and one rule for everyone else it seems.--Sein und Zeit (talk) 11:57, 31 August 2017 (UTC) Indef blocked for abusively using multiple accounts. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:15, 2 September 2017 (UTC)Reply
User:Jytdog, are you actually going to answer my question or just ignore it by responding with questions? It was a perfectly reasonable question to ask. A book is included in the 'Racial ideology' section of the Nazism sidebar when the book itself praises Jews which is at the complete opposite spectrum of what Nazism preached. And again, you have also clarified exactly why I advocate the addition of a separate section titled 'Literature' because although certain books were used by the Nazis to somehow make their racial ideology seem more legitimate, many of the works they used actually were against other racial ideologies their preached. Just because the Nazis decided to use certain books that propagated their ideals does not make those books themselves part of Nazi racial ideology. A Nazi racial ideology was for example Blood and Soil not Gobineau's An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races. The inclusion of works in the 'Racial ideology' section because certain parts of the book were favoured by the Nazis is not a WP:NPOV assertion as it is without any doubt WP:UNDUE. --Sein und Zeit (talk) 11:57, 31 August 2017 (UTC) Indef blocked for abusively using multiple accounts. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:15, 2 September 2017 (UTC)Reply
I haven't removed the books because I've already quite clearly established that I don't think the books should be removed. On the contrary, I think they should be included in a more appropriate section titled 'Literature' since essentially that is what they are, not racially ideologies per se.--Sein und Zeit (talk) 16:11, 31 August 2017 (UTC) Indef blocked for abusively using multiple accounts. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:15, 2 September 2017 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Too large to be helpful
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The scale of this is too large to help navigation Wikipedia:Not everything needs a navbox. Moxy- 17:11, 15 November 2023 (UTC)Reply