- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: no move. -- tariqabjotu 03:44, 11 September 2013 (UTC)Reply
Template:Paris Metropolitan Area → Template:Paris urban area – The 'Paris Metropolitan area' does not exist as a translation of 'aire urbaine' in any official documentation, but the INSEE, France's official statistics bureau, has provided 'urban area' as the proper English term to use since years now. THEPROMENADER 15:24, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
When this template was created there was no real translation for aire urbaine, and even then the creation/use of the term 'Paris Metropolitan Area' was pure WP:OR. Today the official French statistics organization, the INSEE, provides an official translation for the term: 'urban area'. Thanks. THEPROMENADER 08:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
So if INSEE translatates aire urbaine as "pink elephant" on their website, we should call it "pink elephant" on Wikipedia? Give us a break! You have an obsession against this template from what I can see in this talk page (you wished to delete it already 6 years ago!). The definition of the aire urbaine (an urban core with a commuter belt around it) is what's called a metropolitan area in English. What's called an urban area in English is what INSEE calls unité urbaine. Der Statistiker (talk) 12:49, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- INSEE: France's official census bureau. French: 'aire urbaine'. English: 'urban area'. Thanks.THEPROMENADER 12:54, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
If INSEE's command of English is not good, that's not a reason why we should use their faulty English and mislead people. An aire urbaine is a metropolitan area by all definitions of that word in English. It's not an urban area. Meaux or Rambouillet are not, by any definition of the word, part of the urban area of Paris. Now you're the one who is trying to make Paris bigger than it is. Der Statistiker (talk) 12:57, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- They even use that language in their official documents. Go figure. THEPROMENADER 13:04, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
INSEE's only official language is French. The dumbed down version of their website in English is only a courtesy for non-French speakers. It has no official value, and contains many faulty uses of English, such as literally translating aire urbaine as "urban area" in English, when an aire urbaine, by INSEE's official definition, is absolutely not what's called "urban area" in English. It would be like literally translating the French inhabité by "inhabited" in English, when inhabité actually means "uninhabited" in English. Der Statistiker (talk) 13:14, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- Where do they translate 'inhabité' to 'inhabited' - that's a pretty disingenuous straw-man argument. Do you mean to say that INSEE does not have the manpower or brainpower to provide translations for a terminology of their own creation, and have been repeating this 'error' since years already? So why would they provide translations in the first place? And why have ~they~ not used the term 'Metropolitan Area" as a translation for their own term? Go figure. THEPROMENADER 16:12, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- …and now you've even ruined the redirect. Don't you know how to edit? Yes, of course admins will think this is contested now - well played. But now they can judge your conduct too. THEPROMENADER 13:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
They'll judge your conduct too. Imposing your weird translations and retitling tens of templates (as this template is used in tens of articles) without discussing this with any other editor beforehand. Der Statistiker (talk) 13:14, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- Er, not 'my' translations (ignoring much?), and nobody would even notice (template namespaces are invisible). THEPROMENADER 13:16, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
You don't just wish to rename the template namespace, you also changed the visible title of the template: [1]. Der Statistiker (talk) 13:29, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
In fact I see that it is going much further than this single template, because The Promenader also rewrote the Paris aire urbaine article with those faulty English translations, again without discussing it with anyone. Der Statistiker (talk) 13:31, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- Now you're not only reverting to an unreferencable name, you're revert-warring to it.
- Again: ::INSEE: France's official census bureau. French: 'aire urbaine'. English: 'urban area'. Thanks. THEPROMENADER 13:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
Let's also note that the generic article for the French aires urbaines is Metropolitan Area (France). The article Metropolitan area in its Metropolitan_area#France section also says: "In France the term for the region around an urban core linked by commuting ties is an aire urbaine (officially translated as "urban area")." I see that the article fr:Aire urbaine in French also specifically refers to the US metropolitan areas, and goes further by saying this: "Une urban area anglo-saxonne se rapproche plus d'une unité urbaine française." So it seems most editors, both at en.wikipedia and at fr.wikipedia, are in agreement that an aire urbaine is what's called a metropolitan area in English, and an urban area in English is what's called a unité urbaine in French. Der Statistiker (talk) 13:46, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- The opinion of a few wikipedia contributors (and 'commonspeak' among those unaware of Paris area demographics) is not above the translations provided by France's official statistics institution. Again: ::INSEE: France's official census bureau. French: 'aire urbaine'. English: 'urban area'. Thanks. THEPROMENADER 14:01, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- Conclusion: in spite of the fact that you're blatantly wrong, you're reverting to a fanciful WP:OR terminology in a very aggressive way (that I won't partake in). How is this productive? And there's no need to post any spiel about 'things that people need to hear': Wikipedia publishes fact for those seeking real information, it's not for broadcasting opinions to the unwitting. THEPROMENADER 14:12, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- Calm down. I don't think the use of aggressive phrases such as "blatantly wrong" will help your case. So far you have carefully avoided addressing the issue, which is that the definition of an aire urbaine is much closer to what's called "metropolitan area" in English than to what's called "urban area". Der Statistiker (talk) 14:17, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- I can say simply 'wrong' if I don't provide references, but when the same erroneous arguments keep appearing even after I ~do~ provide references, that's foraging (rather blindly) into 'blatant' territory. THEPROMENADER 14:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
(afterthought) Ok, I've made my case clear and even provided imbattable references on this talk page - there's no excuse to revert my edits now.
And since I've seen this situation and the same vague arguments a thousand times before, don't even try answering with 'proof' links to Demographica (god knows where they get their information), Economic studies and other 'for-Paris-unaware' websites using 'local commonspeak' to refer to Paris - Wikipedia is not that, and there are a myriad of references available straight from the source for those who choose not to ignore them. THEPROMENADER 14:27, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
And you've destroyed the redirect; the least polite thing you can do is fix it. THEPROMENADER 14:56, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- No article uses the template redirect. Der Statistiker (talk) 15:08, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- That's not true - the admin threads opened today link to it. You destroyed it, why wouldn't you fix it? THEPROMENADER 15:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- An admin had to reinstate the redirect - leaving someone else to clean up your own mess sends a message of 'I don't care' arrogance. THEPROMENADER 18:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- FWIW, even though I had every reason to make the change I did, I'm waiting to see where the template-move arbitration goes before making my corrections once again - I'm quite sure they'll be reverted again anyways. THEPROMENADER 15:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
Support I have to say, there seems to be dispute over the correct term, and in cases like this, we have to follow the "official terminology", whether we personally agree with it. I have no specific opinion (I have not researched sufficiently on the subject) but procedurely the INSEE term should be used.--Gilderien Chat|Contributions 22:10, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
Oppose WP:OFFICIALNAME if the only reason we're renaming this is beacause the government agency calls it that, that's the wrong reason. We do not use official names just because they are official. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 04:46, 30 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- Oppose -
as per above - but I would like to point out that the move destination is not a name, it is about the terminology and translation the very institute that created the template's subject (the aire urbaine statistical area) uses for international communications. I do think now that a move to "urban area", even though legitimate, could cause confusion. I still oppose using the grandiose 'Paris Metropolitan area' as a misleading translation for a barely-used statistical region: most French people don't even know what an aire urbaine is. THEPROMENADER 05:05, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
Yet, true to the comment below, I would also support a redirect to Template: Paris aire urbaine namespace; since the statistical area and its name is unique to this country anyways, this would both provide inarguable references and elminate all chance of confusion. THEPROMENADER 09:03, 30 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
Oppose As I said here, INSEE cannot be considered as a source for English language in Wikipedia. Their mission is to produce statistics about France and study economy, not foreign languages[seudo 1]. 'Aire urbaine' and 'metropolitan area' are about how the people live (they include commuters) while 'urban area' and 'unité urbaine' are about land use (continuous group of buildings), that is very different. If you are not comfortable about disagreeing with INSEE, then use no translation at all and keep the French word 'aire urbaine'. But do not use a bad English translation without a reliable external source (e. g. from an institution specialized in translation of words). Seudo (talk) 08:17, 30 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- ^ You may ignore my personal experience, but I graduated from the school that makes INSEE engineers and I can tell you that, as in most French grandes écoles, proficiency in English was not very important to get your diploma.
- And if you need some external sources about the fact that 'unité urbaine' is approximately the same as 'urban area', see [2] ('The concept of urban agglomeration (called urban area in UK, unité urbaine in France, Verdichtungsraum in Germany)...').
- However, OECD recently worked on a new concept of 'functional urban area' ([3] and [4]) which looks like metropolitan areas or 'aires urbaines'.
- I still think the French word 'aire urbaine' may be the best because:
- you don't need to do international comparisons here, since you only list towns in the Paris metropolitan area;
- I guess the list of towns was (or should) be established from French sources which probably used the French definition, not US, UK or OECD definitions. Seudo (talk) 08:47, 30 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- I don't doubt you at all - you're making perfect sense! (the following is transcluded from the Paris talk page): there's almost an entire page dedicated to explaining how different countries treat the 'Urban area' term. Since that term (and 'metropolitan area') differ from country to country, it would be both logical and referencable to use the original French name for their quite unique creation, and provide a short explanation and a link to the aire urbaine page where it is used. (following added for here): Yet it should be noted that, although the INSEE's English is not the best, one would think they would pay particular attention to the translation of their own terminology, and nowhere in the English version of their website or documentation do they use the term 'metropolitan area' (save for foreign-authour .pdf documents published there), and this since years - the term is well known, there must be a reason for this - so the translating 'aire urbaine' into 'Metropolitan area' is fanciful at best. It's not the move ~to~ I'm most concerned with: any correct and referencable term will do, but the INSEE is the best reference we have for a correct namespace to date. But I'm all for using the orginal French term. THEPROMENADER 08:57, 30 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
INSEE researchers do use the term 'metropolitan area' in many papers [5], e.g. here: 'We allocate each municipality to its metropolitan area (‘Aire Urbaine’) when it is part of one'.
- The translation you mentioned is a translation of the INSEE website (probably made by an external company). I would trust a published paper more than the translation of a website. But usage is variable even if published papers...
- I agree that a link to Urban area would be very useful and would solve many problems. Seudo (talk) 09:29, 30 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
Just note that most of those papers a) use the term for other-country cities where they are valid ('washington metropolitan area') or are b) the work of other-country authors ('Working papers do not reflect the position of INSEE but only the views of the authors.' is the first-page notice on most). Not once will you find the term 'Paris Metropolitan area' in the INSEE website… whoops, once, but it's a translation from the work of a US authour - again with the 'not the work of the INSEE' mention. THEPROMENADER 09:50, 30 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
Oppose English Wikipedia should use the common English term for the area, which is a perfectly acceptable and correct idiomatic translation of the French phrase. The word-for-word translation does not work well, and the sense-for-sense translation is definitely preferable in this case. Translating a phrase like this word-for-word leads to the wrong sense in the English, as "urban area" (which is a land use term) does not mean the same thing as "metropolitan area" (which refers to a city core and its surrounding suburban areas). Since the sense of the French usage matches the second, we should use that. Especially since most reliable, English language sources use the phrase "Paris Metropolitan Area". That the French sources use "aire urbaine" isn't all that relevent, since that phrase is best translated, in the sense used in the original French, as "metropolitan area". --Jayron32 03:53, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- "Especially since most reliable, English language sources use the phrase "Paris Metropolitan Area"." - that's not what I found at all, but perhaps you found something I didn't. What are those reliable sources? THEPROMENADER 04:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
The only remotely credible source turning up in a Google search for 'Paris metropolitan area' is Demographica (and they translate it to 'Île-de-France' ! ), and they don't disclose where their info comes from. Aside from that one can find 'generalistic' translations uses of 'Paris metropolitan area' are referring for the most part to a vague 'the area around paris' using the local commonspeak, but this template (and other pages) use the term as a direct reference to a specific entity: the INSEE's aire urbaine and all the communes within it. Therefore, for anything referring specifically to the French aire urbaine, I think it best to use the original French terminology. THEPROMENADER 07:56, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
Ok, so if several editors agree, we should correct the Paris aire urbaine article, because The Promenader has translated "aire urbaine" as "urban area" everywhere in that article. I also wonder whether the article shouldn't be moved to "Paris Metropolitan Area", since it's preferable to use English terms rather than French terms (for example, "Départements of France" was moved to "Departments of France"). Der Statistiker (talk) 13:58, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- Er, no, nobody here has 'agreed with you' (especially since you didn't even take part in the discussion after voting began) - this decision has nothing to do with your (stated) wish to revert/move another article. And the term you want to revert/move to is being questioned and discussed (here and on other pages), so don't be hasty about anything. THEPROMENADER 15:57, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
- PS: It's not always preferable to use English terms when no properly referencable translation exists. That is what is being discussed and even concluded (read above - I even changed my mind about this move), so get involved if you want to. I think the 'Paris aire urbaine' talk page would be a good place to merge/continue these discussions. THEPROMENADER 16:21, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
Instead of merging comments from different pages (the complaint about this template on the Paris talk page (?!) for starters), I continued the discussion on the Paris aire urbaine talk page where it should be. Cheers THEPROMENADER 08:56, 1 September 2013 (UTC)Reply
Oppose per my comments at Talk:Paris aire urbaine; this appears to be the same issue, and a decision should apply to both the template and the article. --BDD (talk) 20:56, 5 September 2013 (UTC)Reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.