ReplyWP:RS that Northern Ireland, 1968–98 is called a colonial conflict
edit
Sorry I am just seeing this now. I seem to only get notifications when the page itself, as opposed to the talk page, is modified. To be honest I am surprised that this is even considered controversial but how and ever, I will cite some sources.
Can I assume there is no argument about Ireland being described as a colony in the early modern period? Especially from the time of the plantations in Munster and Ulster onwards (‘plantation’ was a synonym for ‘colony’ then-the words were used interchangeably to refer to both Ulster, Munster, Virginia, Barbados etc.). These were state-sponsored projects with the explicit objective of replacing much of the indigenous Gaelic population with English and Scots; you can’t get much more ‘colonial’ than that. This has been firmly established in the work of D.B.Quinn and Nicholas Canny (see practically anything they published on the subject), and more recently the foremost academics in the field (Raymond Gillespie, one of whose many books is entitled ‘Colonial Ulster’).
Even the doyen of anti-Republicanism, Roy Foster, writes on the first page of his widely-read ‘Modern Ireland’ survey: ‘the English colonial presence in Ireland remained superimposed upon an ancient identity, alien and bizarre.’ It is true that there has been a debate about the uefulness of comparisons to English colonies in North America, but even the most critical of these comparisons have accepted that ‘colonisation became the preferred option in Ireland’. (Hiram Morgan, ‘Mid-Atlantic Blues’, The Irish Review, No. 11, p.51) Can we agree that this holds for the eighteenth century? Certainly the editors of the Oxford History of the British Empire volume on the eighteenth century deems Ireland worthy of a chapter. This was a society in which a colonial settler class, usually termed the Protestant or Anglo-Irish ascendancy, a minority but legally, militarily and economically privileged, differed in language, religion and social origins to the native population of disenfranchised Catholic Irish, who constituted about 70% of the population in the middle of the century, and who were excluded from any role in administering the country.
Perhaps the best proof that Ireland was regarded as a colony at the time is the indignant protests by this Anglo-Irish class that Ireland was being treated as a colony from London. As many unionists continue to argue, they wanted to be treated as if they lived in any other part of Britain. Works like Molyneux’s ‘The Case of Ireland...Stated’ (1698), however, would not have been necessary if Ireland had not been, in fact, a colony. The widespread use in the scholarship of the term ‘colonial nationalism’ to describe this movement again attests to the fact that Ireland is considered a colony by researchers in the field. See for example the standard work on the period: ‘A New History of Ireland, Volume IV’. So this leaves us with the period after 1801 that the term ‘colony’ is being disputed I guess.
Necrothesp has pointed out that Ireland was a constituent part of the United Kingdom with seats in the British parliament. This is true in a formal, legal sense, although this was only the case from 1801 onwards. Was it a colony before that? Again, formally-speaking, it was a separate kingdom, but it would be seriously misleading to take this legal status on face value, and few historians do so. (I should also add the fact that most Irish weren’t allowed to vote until the mid-19th century, rendering the fact that Ireland had seats in the London parliament somewhat meaningless from their point of view). I am getting to Northern Ireland, but seeing as all the Irish conflicts have been removed from the template list now, I feel I have to make some kind of extended justification to cover their inclusion and therefore the last 500 years of history! So...in the nineteenth-century Ireland, despite its formal incorporation into the UK in 1801, is still widely referred to in academic texts as a colony.
I would be the first to admit that this description is not without its caveats and detractors. David Fitzpatrick (not known for his sympathies towards republican or nationalist interpretations either) writes in the ‘Oxford history of the British empire vol 3’, (p.494): ‘The formal Union of the kingdoms of Ireland and Great Britain masked a hybrid administration with manifest colonial elements, allowing variant interpretations of the character of Ireland's dependency. Was Ireland an integral part of the United Kingdom, a peripheral, backward sub-region, or a colony in all but name?’ There were, therefore, some anomalous features about Ireland that made it unique among Britain’s colonies. The fact that it is included in Oxford’s standard reference work on the empire, however, suggests to me that there is a considerable body (notwithstanding dissenting voices) of opinion in academia that views Ireland as a colony up to independence, and by extension, the conflict in Northern Ireland as rooted in the tensions inherent in settler colonial situations. Despite formal incorporation into the UK, Ireland’s status as a colony is most often argued in terms of its actual treatment by the ‘mother country’ as oppposed to legal status or avowed intentions.
The retardation of southern Irish industry, the disdain for the native population and the social engineering that exacerbated the famine-these are all things that bespeak a colonial form of rule over a subject people who are widely deemed by the metropole to be inferior. From everything I’ve read on the subject, Michael Hechter’s book, ‘Internal Colonialism’ (1975) describe best the way Ireland was economically ‘condemned to an instrumental role by the metropolis’ which, Hechter argues, is the ‘pattern of development characterising the colonial situation’. (p.30) I can provide a raft of further citations to support this if necessary, but this post is getting long enough already. Terrence McDonough (ed.), ‘Was Ireland a colony?: economics, politics, and culture in nineteenth-century Ireland’ (2005) is an excellent introduction, and includes critique of this colonial analysis as well as support.
Finally, to the part of Ireland that remained a constituent part of the UK after 1922, Northern Ireland. Once again, it has to be stressed that to argue simply from the area’s de jure status that Northern Ireland is not a colony but a constituent part of the UK is insufficient and not reflective of academic discourse on the subject. To take the same logic would be to argue that Algeria was not a colony from 1848 onwards when, technically, the area consisted of three départements, legally-speaking as integral to the French state as Paris was. The same is still true today of French Guiana, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Mayotte and Réunion. Are these places not colonies? As for Northern Ireland, I would again acknowledge a description of the Troubles as a colonial conflict is far from universally-accepted, but it is widespread in the scholarship. David Miller, a professor of sociology at the University of Bath, has written extensively on Northern Ireland and the Troubles, and his work consistently argues for a colonial paradigm in understanding the conflict. A bibliography of his work is here: http://www.dmiller.info/ Pamela Clayton’s essay ‘Religion, Ethnicity and Colonialism as Explanation of Northern Ireland’ in Miller, ‘Rethinking Northern Ireland’ (1993), pp.40-54 is a sustained argument for the colonial context. Lustick, ‘Unsettled States, Disputed Lands: Britain and Ireland, France and Algeria’ (1993), passim, also discusses Northern Ireland (and Ireland as a whole before 1922) as a colonial conflict, as does MacDonald, ‘Children of Wrath: Political Violence in Northern Ireland’, (1986).
In my experience, the argument that Ireland/Northern Ireland was/is not a colony is often based on nothing more than the geographic proximity of the two countries. This once again suggetss comparisons with French Algeria, which the French also displayed a reluctance to refer to as a colony, even in the fifties when they were fighting tooth and nail to hold on to it, see: Lustick, Ibid., p.113. Other books that make the comparison with Algeria are : Hugh Roberts, ‘Northern Ireland and the Algerian Question’ (1986) and Frank Wright, ‘Northern Ireland: A comparative analysis’ (1987). Given that this template is about British colonial campaigns, I think it is most telling that, in the seventies especially, the British army itself approached their operation in Northern Ireland as a colonial insurgency, see: William Beattie Smith, ‘The British State and the Northern Ireland Crisis’, 1969-73, pp.153-4, 197, 307. Smith on p.377 describes direct rule after 1972 as a ‘colonial system’.
Likewise Weitzer, ‘Transforming Settler States: Communal Conflict and Internal Security in Northern Ireland and Zimbabwe’ (1990), who analyses Northern Ireland throughout his work as a colony, states: ‘Direct rule in effect installed a system of colonial rule [which] has no roots in civil society and has precarious authority at best. As in other colonial states, the British administration is superimposed on society and institutionally detached from local social forces.’ (pp.197-8) O'Leary and McGarry, ‘The Politics of Antagonism: Understanding Northern Ireland’ (1993) argue extensively about the colonial nature of the conflict.
McGarry and O’Leary are about as authoritative you can get on the subject of Northern Ireland. In their volume ‘Comparing Northern Ireland’ (1995), p.141, they write: ‘The international community largely accepts the colonial analogy’. I must say this is my impression as well. I have only ever encountered resistance to the idea from British unionists. I have my own ideas about why that is but let’s not get into that. They are of course entitled to their opinion, but that does not mean that this exclusion of Northern Ireland from the ranks of Britain’s colonies should take precedence on wikipedia. One of its principles is that it should reflect a global POV, after all Wikipedia:Systemic_bias. It has been suggested that to regard N.Ireland as a colony is not NPOV; I would suggest that to exclude it is not NPOV, given that NPOV means ‘representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic’. Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view I would argue, therefore, that the Troubles be included in this list of British colonial templates, notwithstanding dissenting views. Certainly to exclude the other Irish conflicts in the list would seem to me to constitute OR.
21:49, 10 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerrynobody (talk • contribs)
Replies
edit
- Thank you for the extensive engagement with the topic at hand, Gerry. I've taken the liberty of splitting it up into paragraphs as it was rather difficult to read as originally formatted, I hope you don't mind. You mention Fitzpatrick's writing: ‘The formal Union of the kingdoms of Ireland and Great Britain masked a hybrid administration with manifest colonial elements, allowing variant interpretations of the character of Ireland's dependency. Was Ireland an integral part of the United Kingdom, a peripheral, backward sub-region, or a colony in all but name?’; how does he answer this question, or does he just leave it dangling? I also note that while you have presented some sources comparing The Troubles and/of aspects of the government of Northern Ireland to colonial situations elsewhere in the world, none of them seem to me to definitively call The Troubles a British colonial campaign.
- I am not totally unreceptive to the idea of describing the conflicts before the Acts of Union 1800 as "colonial" as the Kingdom of Ireland was separate from the Kingdom of Great Britain (and England before that), albeit very closely connected, but from 1801 this is an integral part of the United Kingdom we're talking about—all of Ireland until 1922, and Northern Ireland after that. Sourced commentary on whether this constitutes colonial rule, a colonial system or whatever is of course very welcome on Wikipedia as we try to present all the different facets of the topic, but that belongs in the relevant articles, not here in this definitive list of British colonial campaigns. Putting The Troubles, 1968–98 on here would be very clearly taking the Irish republican side in the conflict and essentially de-legitimising the legal government of Northern Ireland as a tool of colonial oppression. For this to fit Wikipedia's NPOV policy, we would need sources saying that this is the majority viewpoint of the academic community—that is, that Northern Ireland was a British colony during The Troubles, 1968–98, and presumably remains one now. Are there reliable sources attesting to that being the case? Cheers, — Cliftonian (talk) 08:20, 11 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
- To begin with your last question Cliftonian: yes there are reliable sources attesting to this, and I have cited numerous instances already which definitely identify the Troubles and Northern Ireland as a colonial conflict. As regard Fitzpatrick’s chapter relating to Ireland as a colony in the nineteenth century, yes indeed he is fairly unambiguous in describing Ireland as a colony. A failure to recognise this by some academics he attributes to ‘the scholarly practice of allowing formal constitutions rather than practical relationships to circumscribe political analyses’. (p.499) This is pretty much my point about this period-taking the status of Ireland, on paper, as proof that it was not a colony is clearly insufficient. No historian I’ve ever read has deemed it sufficient evidence in and of itself. Fitzpatrick certainly gives numerous reasons to suggest that, in practice, the relationship was colonial in nature. The following are some examples:
- ‘The Irish administration remained distinctively colonial in both form and function, despite the legislatice union. As in India after 1858, annexation was followed by direct rule under a ‘Lord Lieutenant’ or ‘Viceroy.’ (p.495)
- ‘No government could bring itself to accept the full implications of the Union.’ (p.496)
- ‘Irish unrest provoked measures of repression and coercion unthinkable in Britain; Irish poverty justified welfare experiments and state intervention to a degree shocking to orthodox political economists. In these respects, Ireland was not only exceptional within the United Kingdom but akin to a colony, efficiency in government being valued above the liberty of the subject and the sanctity of property.’
- Again on p.498 he makes the analogy with India: ‘Ireland’s rulers, whether grim or benevolent, tended to regard the Irish as a separate and subject native population rather than an integral element of a united people.’
- p.498: ‘The colonial spirit was evident in what nationalists saw as a substantial 'army of occupation, in which the police performed paramilitary functions while the army offered vigorous 'aid to the civil power' in suppressing riots, affrays, illegal assemblies, and rebellions. In 1880 the irish garrison of over 25,000 soldiers vastly exceeded that in any dependency except India, amounting to twice the size of the police establishment.'
- p.499: ‘Salisbury was not alone in likening the Irish to the Hottentots (being likewise incapable of self-government).’
- Once again let it be noted Fitzpatrick cannot be dismissed as in any way sympathetic to a Republican interpretation. In fact, he is if anything a revisionist, anti-Nationalist in orientation and disliked by some Republicans for his accusations of sectarianism by the IRA In the war of independence.
- As I said, if we were to follow the line of reasoning that Ireland’s status on paper disbars it from being considered a colony, we would have to delete the Algerian War from Template:French_colonial_campaigns. Wouldn't this be unnecessarily restrictive in our definition of what a colony is? Then I don’t see how Northen Ireland is any different. The fact that the government of Northern Ireland is legal...I don’t really see how this has any bearing on the matter, given that all colonial (indeed all oppressive regimes) have been ‘legal’ according to their own laws. Neither do I see that including the Troubles in a list of colonial conflicts necessarily implies adopting a Republican view. However, to merely see it as a matter internal to Britain is to completely ignore the conceptual framework in which one side to the party (i.e. the Irish, not merely Republicans) have generally viewed it: as an international conflict. This is the majority viewpoint of the academic community. again, that doesn’t equate with taking sides in the conflict. To claim, like Thatcher did, that Northern Ireland is ‘as British as Finchly’ is simply mistaken and seems to me wilfully mistaken-nothing more than a policing issue and civil unrest within a country. Indeed, Thatcher herself didn’t really believe this; if had she had, she wouldn’t have signed the Anglo-Irish agreement.
- It might be inferred from the label of ‘colony’ that British rule in Northern Ireland is illegitimate and oppressive, but this does not necessarily follow. These are value judgements, whereas the term ‘colony’ has a specific, objective meaning, which I have demonstrated describes Northern Ireland, i.e. a government-sponsored project to settle the area with colonists from outside and displace the indigenous population. Likewise, it does not necessarily imply that the unionists in Northern Ireland are colonisers, just the descendants of colonisers (although in actual fact the realities of interbreeding, religious conversion, and other factors mean that many who identify as British unionists probably have Irish ancestors: Ken Magennis for example). I am not sure how many sources you need me to cite to prove that the Troubles are widely interpreted as a colonial conflict within academia. All of those I presented clearly locate the Troubles within a colonial framework. The McGarry and O’Leary quote (‘The international community largely accepts the colonial analogy’) is sufficient to show that, globally, this is the mainstream view in academic work on the subject. Gerrynobody (talk) 12:19, 12 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
- Is there an academic source saying: "the mainstream academic view is that Northern Ireland, 1968 to 1998, was a colony", or "the mainstream academic view is that the Troubles were a colonial conflict", or something along those lines? The "international communiry largely accepts" quote seems to refer to foreign governments, not academics. — Cliftonian (talk) 13:33, 12 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
- I have clearly demonstrated that seeing the Northern Ireland conflict as a colonial one is a mainstream view in academia, with fairly copious references. I do not need to provide a quotation more or less affirming this verbatim. I do not feel you are engaging constructively in the discussion Cliftonian. You appear to be arbitrarily placing the burden of evidence so heavily on me as to be impossible to meet. You are also setting up the debate as one in which the onus is on me to convince you. This seems odd to me given that wikipedia is meant to be a collaborative effort. The way I think it is meant to work is that I provide argument, supporting citations (which I’ve done) and then you or anyone else who cares to, provides a counter-argument, which you haven’t. Essentially, you are simply stating over and over again that Northern Ireland is not a colony because....it’s not. This isn’t really an argument. You have not responded in substance to any of the points I have made. This might be the right juncture for you to offer some reliable sources-based evidence that Northern Ireland is not a British colony. All the best.Gerrynobody (talk) 22:28, 14 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
- Incidentally, re: the inclusion of Robert Emmett’s rising, 1848, the Fenian rising of 1867, I'm not sure they would even qualify as campaigns. In reality they were fairly insignificant events, little more than skirmishes and localised unrest really.Gerrynobody (talk) 22:32, 14 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
David Miller, Rethinking Northern Ireland: Culture, Ideology and Colonialism, 2014, p. 3 summarises the academic consensus: "According to the vast bulk of literature on the topic Northern Ireland is not a colony of Britain and the conflict there is not colonial in nature." Seems pretty unequivocal. Cheers, — Cliftonian (talk) 22:57, 14 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
- That is taken somewhat out of context, from a book which argues forcefully for a colonial interpretation of the Northern Ireland Troubles. Given the fairly numerous references I've given to academics who do view it as a colonial conflict, I think it behoves you to provide a more substantial argument than that.Gerrynobody (talk) 23:11, 14 March 2016 (UTC)Reply
- Gerry, that is Miller's summary of the scholarly consensus on whether Northern Ireland is a colony or not, indeed the very first sentence in his book, and it unequivocally shows that the majority view in scholarly literature is that it is not. Can you find a source that contradicts this summary? — Cliftonian (talk) 23:27, 14 March 2016 (UTC)Reply